Listen Like You Mean It
Writer and UX Researcher Ximena Vengoechea shares how she balances writing with research, day job with side hustle, and company brand with personal brand - and why truly listening is more important than ever before.
Show Notes
Ximena Vengoechea has a knack for writing the right thing at the right moment. From her first article that became an editor’s pick on Medium to her widely heralded Life Audit, Ximena’s ability to provide creative solutions to the hard problems of everyday living has earned her a devoted following. Her new book Listen Like You Mean It: Reclaiming the Lost Art of True Connection couldn’t be more timely in a world where being in the physical presence of others feels like the exception rather than the norm.
In her talk with Jesse, Ximena describes how she learned to harmonize her work as a user researcher with her writing. She describes how she created the Life Audit exercise, a unique blend of design thinking and introspection that has helped people all over the world manage their goals and aspirations in an extraordinarily organized way. And she shares insights from her new book about the importance of peer mentorship and the tactics we have to employ now if we want to listen well and build strong relationships with others.
Guest Bio
Ximena Vengoechea is a user researcher, writer, and illustrator whose work on personal and professional development has been published in Inc., The Washington Post, Newsweek, and Huffington Post. She is the author of the recently published book, Listen Like You Mean it: Reclaiming the Lost Art of True Connection.
She is a contributor at Fast Company and The Muse, and writes Letters from Ximena, a newsletter on tech, culture, career, and creativity. She is best known for her project The Life Audit. An experienced manager, mentor, and researcher in the tech industry, she previously worked at Pinterest, LinkedIn, and Twitter.
Helpful Links
Ximena’s website
+ Episode Transcript
Ximena Vengoechea [00:00:06] I think we have culturally a little bit of an emphasis on presenting well, having that good brand, learning how to influence or persuade, and those are talents to be developed. But also there's this other side which is receiving other people and hearing other people and understanding other people. And when you don't have that and you just have that sort of first group, you wind up having great speakers with an audience, but not true relationships. And so I'm interested in cultivating that other part of the equation, which is the listening part, which is where I think so much of the human to human connection occurs, because that's where understanding and empathy can really come into play.
Jesse Purewal [00:01:02] From Qualtrics Industries, this is Breakthrough Builders, a series of conversations with people whose passions, perspectives, instincts and ideas fuels some of the world's most amazing products, brands and experiences.
Jesse Purewal [00:01:16] I'm Jesse Purewal. My guest today is Ximena Vengoechea. Ximena is a manager, mentor and UX researcher who's worked at Pinterest, LinkedIn and Twitter, and she's the author of the just released book Listen Like You Mean It. Ximena joined me today for a conversation on how listening more, hearing every voice and developing deep empathy for the views and lived experiences of others can help create better relationships and build better experiences.
Jesse Purewal [00:01:44] I am here with Ximena Vengoechea, Ximena, thank you for coming on the show.
Ximena Vengoechea [00:01:50] Thank you so much for having me.
Jesse Purewal [00:01:52] Want to congratulate you first and foremost on the release of your new book. Listen Like You Mean It. What's the premise of the book and how did you know that it was time to write it?
Ximena Vengoechea [00:02:01] Thank you. Yeah, so the book is about listening and improving our listening skills as a way to improve the relationships in our lives and strengthen those relationships. And it's a topic that I've always been interested in and that my training as a user researcher has helped in over the years. But it felt increasingly important these past few years where I think it's safe to say that a lot of us have been feeling a little bit more of a sense of disconnection or alienation from each other, in part because of the political and cultural climate we're in and certainly now with the pandemic, which has added even more distance between us all. And I was really interested in in doing my part in helping people feel a little bit more connected. And I think listening is just such a huge part of how we do that.
Jesse Purewal [00:02:56] So this moment give you a great occasion to put much of what you'd written in short form and had in your head, in longer form. It sounds like it's drawing from things you've been reflecting on for many years.
Ximena Vengoechea [00:03:09] Yeah, that's right. And I think I had originally written an article many years ago, a much briefer piece on listening, which seemed to resonate with people. And then I kind of put it aside and kept working as a user researcher. And in some ways, even though I picked this up as a larger project, as a book nearly a decade later, I was very much still working on it because I was continuing to harness those skills and make these observations about how those techniques could be transferred into the real world.
Ximena Vengoechea [00:03:43] It reminds me a little bit about this idea that your best ideas come in the shower. You have to kind of put something down and then come back to it later. And in some ways, that sort of 10 year span of me not writing about it, but still doing the work was my version of kind of setting it aside so that by the time I came back to it, it sort of just poured out.
Jesse Purewal [00:04:05] So tell me a little bit about how you would frame yourself. You've spoken already about being a researcher. Obviously, you're a writer and now an author. There's a multi dimensionality to you that I think is actually very beautiful and a lot of people deeply resonate with. But how do you frame who you are and your role in the world?
Ximena Vengoechea [00:04:24] I think I'm here in part to communicate ideas to the world, but very much in service of others. As a researcher, I'm I'm there to translate what I've learned about people in order to help companies build better products and to humanize that experience. And in my writing, I'm trying to convey lessons that I have learned that I think will be helpful for other people. So I think my my sort of secret sauce is that communication piece. And it comes out in different ways, whether it's writing or illustrating or speaking. But I think I'm here for for other people more than more than for myself.
Jesse Purewal [00:05:04] So you're intent on creating some bastion of wisdom out in the world, which is very applaudable and wonderful. I want to understand how you did this over time before you became a book author. Talk to us about what started the ball rolling for you. What did you write about?
Ximena Vengoechea [00:05:21] Yeah, so I wrote a piece called Side Projects or the New Resumé. And this was it was just a quick two minute read. It was the result of, just to back up a little bit, before working in tech I was in academia for a little bit. I thought I wanted to be a professor. So I was in a PhD program and I pretty quickly realized that it wasn't going to be a fit. I got my master's and I decided that I was interested in what was happening in the tech world. But of course, I had no idea what that actually meant and I had no idea how my background in the humanities could possibly translate to what was happening in tech and startups. And so I did a bunch of informational interviews and I read a ton. And there was this theme that kept coming out for me as I was kind of making this transition and learning about the space, which was that no one cared, for instance, that I had two masters, one in art history and one in comparative literature. In fact, their faces sort of went blank when I mentioned that. So I learned pretty quickly, OK, the the usual credentials maybe don't apply here, but what people did seem to be interested in were side projects, whether you were coding something or designing something or conducting your own user research, because those are ways of really proving that you either had that skill set or were investing in it.
Ximena Vengoechea [00:06:50] And so I wrote a really quick piece about that, like, hey, maybe your resume, as you traditionally think about it, doesn't matter as much as what you're tinkering on and how you're, using your time on the side, and that felt very true based on what I was learning and that's what I talk about, though, what you had to commit to in order to get that moment.
Jesse Purewal [00:07:12] What I'm not imagining is that this sort of idea as it came to you was just a moment and then you broke through. It sounds like there were lots of little moments, a lot of hustle. What were the moments along the way where you said, you know, I'm going to keep pushing this? Maybe you wrote something and not as many people read it as you wanted or you didn't get the feedback you wanted, but you kept pushing. Talk about the journey to get to your breakthrough.
Ximena Vengoechea [00:07:38] In that case, it was a sort of funny thing where it was literally the first thing and it got picked up. But absolutely after that, there were many pieces that I wrote that were completely ignored or just did not get the same love and attention. And I think you can kind of drive yourself crazy trying to figure out why it's like what made one piece go viral and what made another one just completely flop.
Ximena Vengoechea [00:08:01] And it's probably not worth the time, but the goal was always for me to process what I was learning. And then if it was helpful to other people to share it and hope that it was helpful for them. And so that was kind of the driving motivator that would allow me to keep writing, even if, you know, not as many people were reading it as these ideas came to me, I would kind of keep a file and then I would take some time and and write and send them off into the universe. And I did that for years, many, many years before getting to contribute to Fast Company or getting to contribute to The Muse, which I write for both of them. Now we're getting a book deal. So there's just tons of stuff out there which, you know, I'm sure every writer feels this way, too. There's lots of stuff on the Internet, by a particular writer, and some of it does well and some of it doesn't. But you just keep going.
Jesse Purewal [00:08:57] Let me ask you about another piece that you penned about your life audit. I think there's a tie between your prismatic identity as a professional and a researcher and a professional and a hobbyist as a writer and the fact that you would take on a task like this. So for people who haven't read that, I think it's a high utility exercise, maybe talk through how you decided to take it on what it is and what you got out of that.
Ximena Vengoechea [00:09:24] Sure. So I wrote a piece called How and Why to do a Life Audit. And essentially I was at a point in my career where I had all these ideas about what I wanted it to be, both what I wanted to get out of my nine to five and all these creative side projects. And I both wasn't sure where to start and also just kind of needed to zoom out a little bit and look at the big picture and see if what I was working on was actually in line with my values, what I wanted to bring into the world, the experiences that I wanted to have. And so I did this exercise, which I ended up calling the Life Audit, which is basically taking a sticky notes and some sharpies and brainstorming what your goals and values and sense of purpose, where you find that from and then grouping them into themes.
Ximena Vengoechea [00:10:22] And the the whole process is actually borrowed from the design research process. But I translated it into a way for you to kind of audit your life, get a sense of where you're at. Get a sense of if those values are in line with those goals, what might be missing. And then I wrote about it and I chronicled that process because I thought it would be helpful for other people, because certainly when I finished it for myself, I felt a great sense of clarity and much calmer than I had felt going into the whole exercise. And so I shared it. And that was another piece that really resonated with people. So that was a little bit about how it came about and how it landed.
Jesse Purewal [00:11:11] Well, speaks to the viscerality of that need, and it's not unconnected to the sort of disconnection and alienation notions that you started off with. You meant them with respect, I think, to others, not ourselves. But there is a sense of sometimes feeling untethered from one's self. I mean, that must be sort of a theme that really resonates with people when they look at something and they say, wait, she's got it together, I got to do more like that.
Ximena Vengoechea [00:11:37] That's right. Yeah, or maybe not. She's got it together, but she's working on figuring it out and so am I.
Jesse Purewal [00:11:43] And I think it's not to be undersold how accessible your audit process was just by virtue of how you visualized it. I mean, you had some photography, I think, around the project, but your displayed thinking in terms of the visual and the illustrations. Made it so accessible. Want to use that as an honor, I have to ask you about the relationship between illustration and writing for you and whether you detect a one plus one equals five kind of thing there, because I think it's very powerful.
Ximena Vengoechea [00:12:15] Yeah, I certainly see them as complementary and I see them as part of a whole the whole being like whatever idea is that I'm trying to convey. I think some of us are visual learners. Some of us are auditory learners, some of us are verbal learners. And it makes sense to me to try and speak more than one language to help communicate those ideas. But it also makes sense to me, particularly when there's a complex idea that's where I see visuals as being really helpful. I don't tend to use them as decorative, although I think decorative illustrations are lovely. They tend to more for me for my purposes, really play a role in translating some of these complex ideas into more simplified concepts.
Jesse Purewal [00:13:12] I want to ask you about how you are balancing this enterprise that you've taken on being an author and being a very public author and now having a book with being employed by a company in the technology industry to do user experience design, how how does one approach this issue of balance?
Ximena Vengoechea [00:13:36] Yeah, I think this is the the eternal question for anyone who has a creative side hustle in addition to their nine to five, I try not to be super regimented about it and more follow where my energy is and allow myself to kind of more organically balance things. And for me, I've found that there's a very natural dynamic that happens between how invested I am at work, how engaged and energized I am by it and my creative projects. The more passionate I am about what I'm doing at work, the less energy I have for those creative projects, and then things start to shift. And so sometimes you feel like, OK, I've kind of maybe I've onboarded to a new job. I'm reaching a new level of stability at the job, or I've been doing that role long enough that the things that used to be really difficult now only take me a minute to do. And you just have a little bit more brain space for some of that creative work. So it's a little bit of a seesaw in terms of how that balance happens. I've known when you can kind of feel, particularly with writing, when you're pushing something to happen and it's it's just not going to be very good. So I'd rather focus there when I have the energy, when I'm feeling inspired and not worry about it too much., if not.
Jesse Purewal [00:15:03] Does the focus on user research help reinforce the writing and help you become a better writer and vice versa? Or do you find that actually you have more of a cognitive struggle? Like what are the things you're looking for in terms of that dynamism and interplay that you talked about?
Ximena Vengoechea [00:15:22] I think they're absolutely connected. I'm not necessarily writing about user research, but I'm constantly pulling techniques from that world and translating them for a broader audience. And the book is the perfect example of that, because it takes those skill sets really concretely and shares them with a broader audience. And it's also true that user research has a storytelling component. It's not just the interviewing people, deriving insights, learning about how they do or do not use your product. You're then tasked with telling that story to your stakeholders and convincing them or influencing them or negotiating with them that they need to see the product or their user base differently based on what you've learned. And so I'm constantly sort of working on that piece right. Where it's like, well, how do I tell this story? Who who's the audience for this story? What are their motivations that I need to be aware of when I'm trying to communicate to them, what are some potential hurdles that might might get in the way of them really, truly internalizing the story I'm about to tell them. And so I think a lot of the elements exist in both.
Jesse Purewal [00:16:40] Want to keep listening into the conversation about balance and maybe with shifting to the dimension of managing a commitment to a company and a team on one side and to yourself and your identity or personal brand or however you'd frame that on on the other. How have you balanced that kind of dual identity as a member of a team or an organization versus I'm Ximena and this is what I have to say.
Ximena Vengoechea [00:17:11] Yeah, this is a really hard one and I think depends so much on the organization I've worked at places where they've seen my writing as something that's good for everyone. It's good for me, it's good for them, it's good for recruiting, especially as a hiring manager. So it's been I it's been encouraged. You know, it's sort of felt like when you're fully seen and all of your your talents are fully seen and someone says, this is great, I want more of that, even if it's not part of your job description, that's kind of rare in my experience.
Ximena Vengoechea [00:17:46] But it does exist. And if you find it, hold on to it. But then I've also worked at places where I've been explicitly told, please don't write for this publication or please give us a heads up if you're going to publish something. Our team would like to see it beforehand, even if it has nothing to do with the company. I think that's just a brand sensitivity. And honestly, those places don't tend to be a great fit for me. For me personally, because what what that means is someone's asking me to take this thing that I love, that I'm proud of, that I want to do more of and then have to negotiate every time I do it, which if you have a hobby, negotiation is not really normally part of that passion project process. Right. It kind of kills the buzz.
Jesse Purewal [00:18:38] Well, let me ask you about a few things you write about that you say are very important to you. Empathy, collaboration, peer mentoring, continuous self-improvement and chasing learning curves. I want to ask you in particular about two of those. First, the peer mentoring, because I think it's a very distinct idea. What is peer mentoring mean to you and why is it important?
Ximena Vengoechea [00:19:02] Yeah, I think the best way of thinking about what peer mentorship is, is that we often think about mentorship as either up or down. So being mentored by someone who was more experienced than you. Or mentoring someone who is more junior than you? It's sort of those are the two directions. But what I found is actually there's this there's this middle level, which is wherever you are in your career, there are other people who are in a similar space doing similar things or aspiring to similar goals. That's your cohort, right? Those are those are people who are dealing with the same challenges as you are. And there's so much that you can learn from each other. So rather than thinking about it as a sort of hierarchical relationship, I think of it as it's a flat mentorship across a group of peers. And I mean, there are so many examples of when this is useful, but I'll pick one which is maybe a little bit more obvious, which is what if you are thinking about changing jobs, changing companies, changing roles, maybe you can't talk to your manager about that, for instance, but you need somebody else to talk to about it, somebody who's in your position, who has maybe made that decision recently or is also thinking through the same trade offs and at a certain similar stage in their career is going to have really helpful things to say. And I also think that things are changing so fast, particularly in technology, that even if you did ask someone, hey, when you made this decision five years ago, what were your considerations five years ago, so long ago in tech? You know, it's like you kind of need that cohort of people who are really in the trenches with you who have made that decision a year ago or are about to make that decision.
Jesse Purewal [00:21:02] Well, and so that story you're telling about the decision you might make, that that's closely related to empathy, you know, seeking empathy, giving empathy. That's another one of these items. You talk about being very important. And it is very much the theme of the book you've just written. So talk to me about empathy. What is it about that idea in the promise of that idea, that ground you and that that engages you both around your UX pursuits and what you're doing as a writer?
Ximena Vengoechea [00:21:32] I think empathy is really at the root in terms of. This interest I have in people, which is just what makes a person tick. What makes them feel motivated? As a manager, I'm interested in how do you do your best work? How do you like to receive praise? How do you like to receive feedback? That answer is so different for every individual. And you could you could take a similar approach, I think, in research, which is OK, what is your experience like? What is your life like? How do you use this product? What are your routines and habits? And it's really it's about understanding people where they are rather than, you know, where we want them to be or where we think they should be, or in a way that reflects who we are. It's it's not about us. It's more about the other person. And I think I've just always been drawn to the idea that everyone has some has a rich inner world that I'm not privy to unless I try and get there. And maybe that's also the sort of like literature and reader part of me where every character has a world within them and you just have to kind of stick with them. And actually, literature is the thing that allows you to go into their inner world in a way that we're normally not. It's normally not accessible to us.
Jesse Purewal [00:23:05] It's a fascinating reflection from someone who is as well read as you are to think if characters can be concocted with such a magic alchemy, certainly the real humans must have one that's at least as good, at least. Hopefully, right?
Ximena Vengoechea [00:23:20] Yeah, exactly. And we're all taking inspiration from our real world in some ways. So anyone who's ever written anything that magical, you know, character that they've developed, all those quirks that make a character real and true come from real people in some way.
Jesse Purewal [00:23:40] So Ximena you are the author of the forthcoming Listen Like You Mean It, Reclaiming the Lost Art of True Connection. So, um, I asked you at the top about why you wrote the book. I want to ask you now about what your hopes are for us as a society after we've all consumed and reflected on this part of what you've had to say.
Ximena Vengoechea [00:24:05] My hope is that people will feel ready and inspired to put some of the tactics that I share into practice and that that helps them in all of their relationships, whether that's at work or at home. I think that we. Have gotten really good at thinking about ourselves. I mean, we've talked about branding quite a bit in this conversation already of like how do I think of myself? And I think there's so much more there when we get beyond the scope of ourselves and start to connect with another person. And I'm I'm interested in shifting the conversation a little bit. I think we have culturally a little bit of an emphasis on presenting well, having that good brand, learning how to influence or persuade. And those are talents to be developed. But also there's this other side which is receiving other people and hearing other people and understanding other people. And when you don't have that and you just have that sort of first group, you wind up having great speakers with an audience, but not true relationships. And so I'm interested in cultivating that other part of the equation, which is the listening part, which is where I think so much of the human to human connection occurs, because that's where understanding and empathy can really come into play.
Jesse Purewal [00:25:38] And I know you talked to many listening experts as you went through the journey of writing the book, what did you learn from listening experts about some root causes that might be behind maybe that ratio of we talk too much to listen too much?
Ximena Vengoechea [00:25:56] Yeah, I think there are certainly very common responses and very human responses, I think that are at play. For instance, one is that in conversation, oftentimes we think we're listening. So it's not like we're trying to ignore someone. We think we're doing a pretty good job of listening. But then at the same time, we're making a list of the groceries we need to pick up later or we're so excited by what someone is saying that that sparks an idea in us. And then we're off to the races mentally of like, oh, this is something that I want to work on. Or we think someone is wrong and we disagree with them and we're just winding up. You're sort of teeing up what you're about to say. Those are super common responses, and I think that's that's part of the blessing and the curse of the human brain is like we can react so quickly and we can think about things so quickly and have these sparks of inspiration. But part of it, I think, in terms of managing that is. Awareness as a very first step, and I think that's a lot of what I'm trying to bring through the book is there's this idea that listening is and it is about the other person, but it's so deeply about you and about how you show up in a conversation. And I think just shedding light on some of that is sort of the first step to setting a different intention in conversation.
Jesse Purewal [00:27:29] And as you look at how the book may be received in this era where, you know, there are many who will now say, oh, you give me remote work, you give me remote communication, I'll take it, I might want to spend more time with you, but it might not be worth my budget with my time worth my X, Y, Z, and therefore maybe we have fewer people reading body language and doing things in the company of one another. What are the lessons that you would say people as they consume the book should pay special attention to if they're planning on being one of these folks that for the next however many years, maybe their entire careers, maybe their lives intends to be a little bit more maybe remote from other company that they had than they had been previously.
Ximena Vengoechea [00:28:15] One thing that does hold, whether you're in person or remote, is paying attention to pitch and cadence in conversation. So if someone's speaking pretty level, pretty steadily, pretty deliberate pacing, and then that suddenly changes, you know, maybe their pitch goes up or they start speaking much more rapidly or they slow down a lot. That's a pretty good cue that something has happened in conversation for them, whether the topic has set them off or exhausted them or you've inadvertently said something or they just missed lunch, another cranky. You can be any number of things, but that's a sign to pay attention.
Ximena Vengoechea [00:29:01] And then the other thing I would say is that I think in this very sudden shift to a remote world, we've gotten used to the idea that if we would have met in person before now, we should have a video call. Sometimes that's necessary and sometimes that's useful. And sometimes I think a phone call without the video might actually be a better option. And even though it would seem like, well, but then I'm removing the visual component, surely it's going to be harder to understand someone. Actually, what happens is you're paying more attention to the auditory piece and you can actually you can hear someone smile over the phone. You can hear someone thinking over the phone. So you can still get a lot of information about what's happening for the other person over the phone. And in particular, what I like is you can be mobile. And so we know that different environments inspire us in different ways. I could take a walk outside, particularly when you're in motion difficult conversations can be a little bit easier if you've ever had like a walking one on one and had to talk about a working relationship. There's something about being in motion that makes that easier. So I would just say, how can I get creative with this? And maybe I'm not locked into this standard video call because I think sometimes we we don't need that. We actually need something different that will help us listen anyway in a different environment.
Jesse Purewal [00:30:36] Yeah, I'm I'm with you. And people use the phrase zoom fatigue or something like that, which I've written about and spoken about. I, I, I actually think is BS. I think it's ocular overload. I think if we're staring at stuff all day long, that's where the fatigue sets in. It's it's not because we're over listening to your point. So I applaud the title and I applaud all of the thinking and I happen to agree with it. Let me just ask you as a writer to our listeners here who are aspiring first time authors, what principle advice would you leave for them about what to consider as they go on their own writing adventures?
Ximena Vengoechea [00:31:16] I would say, particularly if you're thinking about a book, is to make sure it's a topic that you are in love with because you'll be sitting with, thinking through, exploring, grappling with that topic and that set of ideas for at least two years more. If everything goes well, what you want it to go well. So, you know, if you're not sure if you love a topic, don't try and make it work. Like pick the thing that it's the perfect fit. You feel really good. And it's got to be something that you're really, truly one hundred percent excited about because it's going to get hard and you need that to keep going.
Jesse Purewal [00:32:01] I love it. Well, thank you for allowing us at Breakthrough Builders to be part of this journey with you. I certainly am a big fan. I've learned a lot from your writing, from your illustration, from your honesty and your candor and certainly your your pragmatism. So, so appreciate it. Where can people pick up a copy of Listen Like You Mean It?
Ximena Vengoechea [00:32:23] Yes, so if you go to my website, which is my first name and last name, dot com, Listen Like You Mean It, you will find all the links to whatever retailer you prefer.
Jesse Purewal [00:32:35] Terrific, well, Ximena, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast and I hope to loop back with you again soon.
Ximena Vengoechea [00:32:41] Thank you. Thanks so much for having me on.
Jesse Purewal [00:32:54] Thanks to Ximena, for joining me on the show. Please check out her work online or in her book. She's a beautiful and practical thinker, and it was my pleasure to spend some time with her today. You heard Ximena talk about how as a society, we have a bit of a cultural emphasis on presenting well, being a good speaker, learning how to influence. And she's acknowledged that all of that is great. But she also pointed out there's the other side of receiving other people, hearing other people, understanding them, and she's interested in cultivating that part of the human equation, the listening part where connection truly happens. So for today's building blocks, I want you to do your own reflection on what you believe we as a society and as individuals can or should be doing more of or less of. We're doing better for Ximena it was listening. For me, it's something like showing unbridled appreciation to people every day for the little things and being more intentional about kindness at every turn. For you, it might be something like patience or honesty or openness. You could even be something really specific, like spending more time with certain people or in nature or something along those lines. Take some time to think about it and write about it. And if you want some templates, check out the show notes here in the app. You're listening to this episode on or over on our website. Breakthrough Builders.com, that's Breakthrough-Builders dot com. Hit me up through the website and share some of your reflections. I'd love to hear from you. Take care breakthrough builders and be well.
Jesse Purewal [00:34:31] Thanks so much for listening to Breakthrough Builders. You can subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts. If you enjoyed the show, I'd be grateful if you could spread the word by leaving a rating and a review. It really does help other listeners find us. And please tell your friends. Breakthrough Builders is a production of the Industries Team at Qualtrics. The show is written and hosted by me, Jesse Purewal. Mastering by Nate Crenshaw. Post-production and music by Clean Cuts Audio, part of the Three Seas Collective. Design by Baron Santiago Vinsuka Chindavijak.Website by Gregory Hedon and photography by Christy Hemm Klok. Special thanks to the entire Breakthrough Builders crew at Qualtrics, including Ali Rohani, Jeremy Smith, John Johnson and Kylan Lundeen.