Marketer and Multiplier
How Natalie Sunderland sparked a digital transformation at American Express, handled a brand turnaround at Citi, and transitioned into tech to drive impact at scale as a Chief Marketing Officer.
Episode Notes
Natalie Sunderland believes the primary job of a marketer is to create growth. It’s a simple but powerful conviction that’s helped her land and thrive in high-impact roles throughout her career at some of the largest, most venerable brands in the Financial Services industry.
In her talk with Jesse, Natalie describes her lifelong journey as a marketer that began with producing public television programs in her native Ontario. She describes the experience of leading legendary product teams at American Express, the challenges of re-building Citigroup’s brand after the Great Recession, and the strenuous and unexpected role of leading Castlight Health to its IPO in 2014. Ultimately, she leaves us with a look at the changing role of the CMO as businesses continue to build and re-center their brands around consumer experiences.
Guest Bio
Natalie Sunderland is the global CMO of Addepar, a leading fintech platform for wealth management. She is a noted enterprise SaaS marketer with a track record of building iconic brands, creating new categories and accelerating growth. Prior to joining Addepar, she served as Vice President of Marketing at A.I. leader Qventus as well as Castlight Health, leading both companies through periods of hyper-growth. Prior to that, she held leadership roles at American Express, Citigroup, and Ameriprise Financial. Natalie is from Canada and holds a degree from Queen’s University.
Helpful Links
Addepar’s website
Natalie’s appearance on Fintech Impact podcast
Natalie on LinkedIn
+ Episode Transcript
Natalie Sunderland [00:00:00] Bringing the business problems together with the PNL, with the market, with the customer, like you have an opportunity to see it all and connect those dots and solve problems that matter. And what was really fun about that role was seeing that when you take a look at demographics and mindset, consumers have very similar problems around the world that we can solve.
And that was really, really cool to see.
Jesse Purewal [00:00:41] From Qualtrics Studios, this is Breakthrough Builders, a series of conversations with people whose passions, perspectives, instincts, and ideas fuel some of the world's most amazing products, brands, and experiences.
I'm Jesse Purewal. And today on the show, how Natalie Sunderland went from organizing jazz festivals in her native Ontario to leading a decade and a half of customer centric transformation that helped usher American Express and Citigroup into the digital age, en route to becoming a growth minded, purpose-driven chief marketing officer who's unlocking potential and creating innovation at the intersection of finance, analytics and technology.
I am here with Natalie Sunderland, Natalie, thank you for joining me on the podcast.
Natalie Sunderland [00:01:39] Thanks Jesse. It's so great to be here.
Jesse Purewal [00:01:41] Natalie, where am I finding you today? Where are you staying safe?
Natalie Sunderland [00:01:44] Well, I'm here in San Francisco where the weather is beautiful and frankly, so great to see our neighborhoods emerging from more than a year of quarantine. Walking down Fillmore street, it's almost like Mardi Gras these days.
Jesse Purewal [00:01:57] It is, it is, it's so nice to see now. You're you're not a native though of the city. Right? Where did you, where did you grow up?
Natalie Sunderland [00:02:03] Oh, well, I actually grew up, I'm Canadian. I grew up in Ottawa, but I actually feel like I grew up in New York. I got there in my early twenties and what's so great about New York as so many folks know is that this is where you've got different people from different backgrounds on different journeys, all equally important and New York has the ambition and optimism, like no other city. So I call New York my hometown.
Jesse Purewal [00:02:28] If I met 11 or 12 year old Natalie, along the way, who's the person I would have met. What were you up to in those days?
Natalie Sunderland [00:02:35] When I was 12, I started high school. So like many first-generation immigrant kids, very family oriented, very focused on education and probably dreaming of meeting Simon labon from Duran Duran one day. But, uh, being 12 in the ninth grade really meant that I had to cut my own path and it really gave me the confidence and strength that have stayed with me even to this day.
Jesse Purewal [00:03:01] And you studied marketing, if I'm right. When you first got to university, when, when you got to Queens and Ontario, what was it that compelled you towards or interested you initially in marketing?
Natalie Sunderland [00:03:11] I was always interested in business and maybe looking back on it, maybe then I intuitively understood that marketers are really natural leaders of companies. Our jobs, right, Jesse are to understand the market, understand consumer needs, really see where markets are going. And I've always felt that the most important role of marketing is to drive growth. And I think in, in a marketing role, you're in a unique position to be the driver of growth in a company. So that's really what attracted me to it.
Jesse Purewal [00:03:45] That said you didn't go and follow the well-heeled path right out of the gate. I think you had some community and some entrepreneurial zest that you were channeling in yourself.
What did you do right out of school?
Natalie Sunderland [00:03:57] When I left college, I was pretty opposed to moving right into a corporate job, that didn't feel like the right fit for me. So I took on a series of marketing management and communications roles in, in different arts and cultural organizations. I've written marketing for a jazz festival in Ottawa, ran Canada Day.
But ultimately, you know, when I think back on that experience, it really was the first start in creating these 360 degree experiences for people, for customers, for clients. And you know, what you realize when you're able to create those experiences that you can really influence the way people think, feel and act.
So that was pretty addictive.
Jesse Purewal [00:04:41] What was one of the funnest stories you can remember or give, give me a time when, when you either had something go crazily off plan, but it was just the most amazing thing. Like what, just give me a story from those days that stands out.
Natalie Sunderland [00:04:54] Sure. Well, in Canada, we have the Parliament Buildings and Christmas is a big deal in Ottawa.
And I was responsible for a grassroots program. We were going to turn the lights on at the parliament buildings and it was going to be filmed on camera. And for the two years before I got there, we'd always missed our cue and this year, the producer of the news channel said, you guys, the governor general was there.
You've gotta be ready. When I point to you, the lights have to go on and, we were ready, and we were ready, and then they cut to commercial. We missed it. So that's one example, but there were certainly lots of really great moments and producing a program like Canada Day, you know, the 4th of July in DC. Um, there's really nothing more thrilling.
Jesse Purewal [00:05:36] To the other side of the spectrum to, I think an organization who prides itself on trying to have as flawless of an experience as possible in American Express. So what made you decide to jump to the other side of the spectrum?
Natalie Sunderland [00:05:50] Yeah. Going off to American Express. What I really wanted to do at that point was really learn from the best and at American Express, I had an opportunity to work with legends, Ken Chenault, Al Kelly, who's now the president of Visa and actually, watching them during, say for example, '08 during the single greatest moment of economic failure in modern history. And I, you know, working at American Express, there are three really key aspects of that experience that have really transformed me professionally, working for a company like Amex.
You really learn what it means to truly be a client-centric company. I can't think of a single conversation that I had in nearly 15 years at Amex, that didn't include the words, what does this mean for the card member, when having a conversation and making sure that every consideration is made for the client experience within every decision?
And that's, that's more than just lip service. I mean, that's fundamentally your business strategy. I think the second big takeaway from the experience at American Express is that good leaders are made not born. Um, and I'll, I'll share that when I first started out managing people, I wasn't great at it. I made a bunch of mistakes, but what I learned from people like Ken is that you have to work at it every day and really understanding what it means to have courage, integrity, create followership, all those really great attributes of leadership. And then finally, I'd say the third big thing at a company like American Express, marketing is a core business role. You need to understand the PNL. You need to act like a GM. And I'd say that all three of those things have really been core to my professional experience.
Jesse Purewal [00:07:36] What were the kinds of things that you did to earn your stripes? Around that, that third one, you know, being a leader of growth, did you get to pick the spots where you would go from the product or the experience in the line you were on? Was it following a manager or somebody who you really trusted and respected?
How does one who's contemplating going into a company like an Amex early in their career think about the recipe for success in terms of career navigation?
Natalie Sunderland [00:08:04] Yeah. Great question. Well, I'd say there are, at least for me, there were a couple of things. One is well, American Express has always been an innovator and really encouraged people to move into different roles, to get different experiences.
You didn't just say, for example, start out in advertising and just go all the way up advertising, you went to go work in risk. You went to go work in finance. You went to go work in different parts of the marketing organization, and all of that rounds you out from there. You've got a common understanding and a common strategy and you build from there.
So in my case, you know, I gravitated to roles where either I could make a really big impact or I could work with phenomenal people, or I could build stuff, clean sheet of paper and, and innovate. And I'd say that was generally the approach that I took in a really large company. I was really lucky to work with incredibly talented people.
Jesse Purewal [00:08:59] Well, you got to be part of the online brokerage at American Express that came together as the internet economy and as e-commerce were expanding into financial services, tell me how you got tapped to join that team and what it was like to be part of a startup within the established enterprise.
Natalie Sunderland [00:09:17] During that time, Rudy Adolf who's now the CEO of Focus Financial, he was building the business and asked me to join the team. They actually put us in a different building across the street from the American express tower. There's something so incredibly special about being able to build a new business with the resources of a fortune 500 company without necessarily being under the microscope.
I mean, we were there, we were building and we were really looking to carve the next stage of growth for the company.
Jesse Purewal [00:09:50] And Natalie, what learnings would you say you took back into American Express as you continued to grow there? What did you help the broader enterprise learn about what was going to be true? Given the digitization of financial services and the online brokerage kind of innovation that you led?
Natalie Sunderland [00:10:09] Well, I think one thing we can all agree on is that American Express is a leader in digital experiences. And, you know, I feel proud of the fact that that really started with a lot of the work that our team did.
We built a new market for online banking, for online brokerage at a time well before FinTech even existed, this was all really new to the financial services industry. I mean, I was still going to the kiosk to pay my bill or sending my check in the mail. It was a different time and it was fertile ground for innovation and in a pretty safe way.
And those learnings were then applied to other parts of the business. You know, there was always a sense that even though it was new, it was not an experiment. And I remember actually having the opportunity to talk to Ken Chenault one day. And he said that what we were building was going to be a big part of the company's growth in the future.
And that always made an impression. And again, comes back to this notion that my number one lesson is marketing is about creating growth.
Jesse Purewal [00:11:14] So Natalie, before you became a marketing leader at Citi or Castlight or anywhere else, you actually were in a product leadership role for about six years, some US focus and some global focus.
Talk about the extension you made from your CX and marketing roles and experiences into something incredibly product centric.
Natalie Sunderland [00:11:33] The role itself was phenomenal. I had to understand three things and connect them. What is going on in the market, market trends? What does our business actually need from a P and L perspective?
What are we going to need to sustain our growth as an overall business for the longer term, and then where are consumer needs today and where are they going. And bringing the business problems together with the PNL, with the market, with the customer, like you have an opportunity to see it all and connect those dots and solve problems that matter.
And to me, that was thrilling, doing that for the U S business with a number of different products, then doing that internationally, whether it was Italy, whether it was Canada, whether it was Australia, Japan, and what was really fun about that role was seeing that when you take a look at demographics and mindset, consumers have very similar problems around the world that we can solve.
And that was really, really cool to see.
Jesse Purewal [00:12:38] As a marketing person, as a brand person, it feels to me like you were there at a very special time. I don't look back and go, wow. Oh, there was this one 18 month period where the sky was just falling. It I'm sure it wasn't always so rosy from the inside, but from the outside, you certainly kept growing the business and kept growing the brand and took an established asset in the American Express brand and continued to evolve it in really cool and interesting ways.
Did it feel like you were in sort of a special time in the history of 170 plus year old company?
Natalie Sunderland [00:13:12] At the time I knew that we were doing something special and was thrilled to be able to make really meaningful contributions to the business. You know, American Express at the time was leading in all categories.
And I learned so much from that experience. And I'll say I'm not alone. I mean, when you look at the marketing talent that has come out of American Express. So many top companies have Amex servers at the helm. And just to share a few of them, Diego Scotti, who's the CMO of Verizon, Janey Whiteside, who is the chief customer officer at Walmart, my old friend, Andrea Zaretsky , who is CMO over at E-Trade, Dan Schulman, CEO of PayPal.
I mean there, it just keeps going even, you know, uh, Steven Young, CMO of Poshmark. So even in the technology space. So I really do feel very fortunate to be part of such a talented and successful alumni network. And I would just encourage folks who are listening to really continue to build their network internally because you know, over time people do move and there's a lot of value in staying connected to the folks that you spend time building your career with.
Jesse Purewal [00:14:23] So after about 14 years at Amex, you make a move over to Citigroup, Natalie, to go run marketing, talk through how that happens and what the remit was for you. Cause that was a tricky time at Citigroup.
Natalie Sunderland [00:14:34] It was. So I went over to join the global marketing team and they had just come out of the financial crisis pretty badly bruised.
And it was in turnaround mode and Vikram Pandit, who was the CEO at the time was looking to bring technology executives into the company to drive transformation. So again, working with some phenomenal people. Michelle Peluso who at the time had come out of Travelocity as CEO, and now is chief customer officer over at CVS.
My mentor, Vanessa Colella, who had been at Yahoo and is now chief innovation officer at Citi. So our job, our remit was to persuade the world to see citi in a different light. And that meant improving the client experience, becoming more digital. That was a really, really big piece of it. And I'll say that with Jud Linville who had been at Amex going over, dozens of Amexers were brought over to ultimately instill our DNA into the company.
Jesse Purewal [00:15:36] Yeah. It's a fascinating thing to do. And I'd love you to just talk about what it was like to be a senior leader in FS during this digital disruption and transformation and how you helped bring it along.
Natalie Sunderland [00:15:48] Yeah, sure. It was really thrilling because it comes back to being a change agent and being given the latitude to do some big things that hadn't been done before.
So at Citi, in the global marketing role that I was in, I was tasked with building relationships with extraordinary companies like Amazon, Facebook, LinkedIn. And there hadn't been a whole lot done with them. This was, gosh, not even 10 years ago. Right. But these companies were, were already a massive influencer in advertising, for example, and it really required a lot of education and getting internal folks comfortable being uncomfortable in North America.
For example, our advertising team was spending about half a billion dollars in advertising, citi was making a lot of investments. And from what I recall, only about 10% of it was digital. So we really had to make an immediate change. And because we had these really great technology leaders come in to help drive the change, they knew that the culture had to be comfortable for folks to get some things wrong.
It was more important to get something out there than to get it right, perfect. And I will say that I fell in love with that technology, Silicon Valley approach to growth and mindset. We don't know, but we need to do something and we're going to try things and we're smart enough to figure it out. And that was a really valuable way for a company like Citi, to start to think
Jesse Purewal [00:17:25] What got you to move to the West coast? Was it the full body embrace of everything going on in that part of the economy?
Natalie Sunderland [00:17:32] Yeah. I mean, that was really appealing, the opportunity to have that kind of adventure, but I will say that I couldn't have done it on my own, executive sponsorship and sponsorship was really important to that adventure. And I had the opportunity to have someone in my professional life who I worked very closely with at citi - I mentioned my mentor, who saw what I was capable of and I'd say that sponsorship is really important when you're making a pretty significant career change because in the end, someone has to make a bet on you. And the only way to make a bet on someone is to have some kind of visibility into what they are able to do, because you're putting your own reputation on the line to some extent.
So in this case, the person that I was working for introduced me to her husband, he was a CEO of Castlight Health, and the rest is history.
Jesse Purewal [00:18:27] How uncomfortable was it to shift out of financial services into healthcare? Did you see this as another growth moment, disruption moment for yourself, where there was a challenge to switch industries, or was the point that you were trying to build a platform of creating digital experiences? No matter what industry you were playing a leadership role in.
Natalie Sunderland [00:18:46] All I knew is that there was something big happening in this part of the world that I wanted to be part of. And in looking at where I was, I didn't see that opportunity to personally grow or break out in the same way. And so, honestly, Jesse, it was a crazy time.
I left New York a month later. So I joined Castlight and actually three months into my role, the CMO decided to leave the company, but asked me to take on many of the marketing responsibilities associated with taking the company public, like simultaneously, he said, we're going public, and by the way, we're also going to relaunch the company, can you take this on? So there's really nothing like doing something terrifying to help you realize what you're capable of doing.
Jesse Purewal [00:19:39] Was it more or less terrifying than not getting the lights to turn on at parliament in Ottawa?
Natalie Sunderland [00:19:45] Very nice question. Definitely more terrifying, but it was all moving so fast that you don't have time to think.
There was one moment though, that probably that really stands out for me. We were relaunching the company. It was three months after we've gone public and all eyes were on us. I mean, if you were to check out the Google, you know, Castlight IPO, there were, we were definitely front and center and very, very visible.
But at the moment, everybody wanted to know how we were actually going to do that relaunch. We had a huge big event. We were hosting Bill Clinton, Steve Forbes, Magic Johnson. About eight weeks before the event I still had, I had lots of things. Feelers out for Steve Forbes, Magic Johnson and Bill Clinton, but nobody had confirmed.
So it was, I remember having a little bit of a breakdown in the car at Easter, thinking to myself, Oh my God, what is going to happen with this event? So it was definitely, like I said, pretty terrifying, but it all worked out beautifully.
Jesse Purewal [00:20:46] Natalie did, did you see from an early stage in your career that a CMO or a head of marketing or someone who really owns the customer centric growth agenda was something you would eventually graduate to the role that you're currently in?
Or was it something you'd really discovered along the way, as you got to know yourself?
Natalie Sunderland [00:21:06] I've always wanted to do high impact stuff, high impact work and make a difference. And so I always gravitated to roles where I could do that. I've never really felt very satisfied doing a small piece of the experience.
I always gravitate to areas where I can influence a much larger chunk of the experience and a much larger piece of revenue. So while it may not have been intentional, initially, it certainly became pretty intentional because those were the roles that I personally found most satisfying.
Jesse Purewal [00:21:36] And talk to me about Addepar, where you are the chief marketing officer, and about how you organized your thinking on taking that opportunity.
Natalie Sunderland [00:21:44] So first off a little bit about Addepar today, you know, we're a wealth management platform known for performance reporting data aggregation. We serve a pretty sizable portion of the high-end market. We've got 600 clients in 25 countries. We just announced recently that we have over 2.5 trillion assets being managed on our platform and the company is at a real inflection point, we're growing really quickly.
There's a lot of momentum. Coming into the role two years ago, there really, even though the company had been about 10 years old, there really wasn't much of a marketing function. So I had to build the marketing function. That's one of the things that I've, I'd say become pretty good at as a technology marketer.
You know, what I do is build and scale and grow marketing functions and help scale businesses. And I'm really proud of the fact that over the past two years, we've doubled revenue, more than doubled our client base, and are getting ready to formally expand into Europe.
Jesse Purewal [00:22:55] Oh, congratulations. That's great news.
Give me one thing, Natalie, that as you reflect on your career in marketing, has stayed remarkably consistent or constant. And one thing that has just been wildly dynamic and changed a ton.
Natalie Sunderland [00:23:09] I'd say looking at the way marketing roles have changed. Uh, certainly there's way more focus on data analysis, instrumentation than I think there ever has been given the types of tools that we now have available at our disposal.
And that's great. Right. You can really fine tune your strategies and make a bigger difference. If you're really investing in operations and data science. I'd say the other thing that feels like it's evolved quite a bit is a recognition that companies need to have more than just brand impact, but they need to be purpose-driven.
And certainly when we engage our employees, when we engage our clients, we're really focusing on crystallizing that purpose for us. You know, we are, we have a phenomenal client experience. We have almost no client churn. Our retention rate is in the mid to high nineties, but we also recognize as a community, we can convene our clients and do more together. And we have the permission to do that, which is actually a really exciting place to be. I guess, at the end of the day, maybe what hasn't changed is, you know, people are people and if you can really connect with your customer, connect with your client and create that human connection, you're going to get to a great outcome.
Jesse Purewal [00:24:39] And if I ask you to take a crystal ball out for a second, how do you see the role of chief marketing officer evolving over the next, say five to seven years?
Natalie Sunderland [00:24:49] You know, I have the opportunity to speak with a lot of folks in the market, a lot of recruiters, which I encourage everybody to do. You should always know what's out there, understand your worth and understand how the market is changing.
And how the needs are changing for marketers. Two things come to the top. No big surprise because it's, it's something we've been talking about throughout this conversation: client-centricity and growth creation. And you know, I'm starting to see conversations shift from, you know, are you a brand marketer?/
Are you a acquisition or demand gen marketer? Are you a product marketer? To, are you a growth marketer? Are you a commercial person? Right. So there's a recognition that marketing roles are well situated to be that chief customer officer, chief commercial officer and drive growth for the company.
Jesse: [00:25:39] What particular
Jesse Purewal [00:25:40] advice would you give to younger women or aspiring women leaders around how to think about their growth in their career?
Natalie Sunderland [00:25:48] Well, I'd say, especially for women, I can't underscore it enough. You really have to invest in your community. And one of the things that I've found has worked for me personally, is when I develop sponsors, people who believe in me, I keep them involved in my life and I keep them involved in my success. I, I want them to feel as though they have skin in the game, in my success.
And that doesn't mean just calling them what I want advice. It really just means nurturing a relationship as I think we all should. So, that sometimes takes time, but is really important. You never really know where your next opportunity is going to come from.
Jesse: [00:26:28] Natalie. Let me move us to a lightning round if that's okay.
I'm going to ask you a series of short questions here. Just give me your first take.
Natalie Sunderland [00:26:35] I'm ready.
Jesse Purewal [00:26:36] All right. Give me a brand you admire, one you can't imagine living without.
Natalie Sunderland [00:26:40] Tik Tok.
Jesse Purewal [00:26:42] Oh, you gotta, you gotta say more. Why Tik Tok?
Natalie Sunderland [00:26:46] So overall, I ,I'd say that over the pandemic, I've become really fond of Tik ToK. It's given me short moments of content that I personally found very enjoyable, but I have to say what I really admire about Tik ToK is their ability to create a platform for creators and really give a voice to interesting stories, interesting views. What's really great about Tik Tok is it's really for everyone. And, uh, I really enjoy my time on Tik ToK, probably a little more than I should.
Jesse Purewal [00:27:15] I love it. A favorite book or one that you've read recently that you really enjoyed?
Natalie Sunderland [00:27:20] I love almost any book set in New York City, probably because I miss New York so much, and I could read Breakfast at Tiffany's again and again, which by the way, is way more edgy than the movie.
Jesse Purewal [00:27:30] Nice. I'm going to have to check out the written version. Uh, accomplishment in your life that you're most proud of.
Natalie Sunderland [00:27:36] Other than my kids and my family, it really has to be taking a leap of faith and moving to California to work in tech eight years ago.
Jesse Purewal [00:27:45] And Natalie, what would you have done with your career if you hadn't gone into financial services and if you hadn't gone into tech?
Natalie Sunderland [00:27:52] I, I really wanted to be a fashion designer. I also wanted to go on tour with bands. I wanted to be a tour manager, so definitely something, something in the arts.
Jesse Purewal [00:28:01] And what's your secret sauce? What's the unique blend of stuff that's distinctly you?
Natalie Sunderland [00:28:06] You know, I think Jesse, I am able to see big possibilities where other people don't. And I can make them come true. That's what I really love to do.
Jesse Purewal [00:28:17] All right. Well, thank you for joining us on the show and it's been a pleasure.
Natalie Sunderland [00:28:21] Thank you so much, Jesse. It was great catching up. Really enjoyed it.
Jesse Purewal [00:28:30] Thanks for listening to Breakthrough Builders. You can subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts. If you enjoyed the show, I'd be grateful if you could spread the word by leaving a rating and a review, it really does help other people find us. And please tell your friends. Breakthrough Builders is a Qualtrics Studios original presented and produced in collaboration with StudioPod media in San Francisco. The show is hosted and executive produced by me, Jesse Purewal. Our writer is Todd Bagnull. From StudioPod media, Deanna Morency is our show coordinator. Editing and production by Katie Sunku Wood. Additional editing and music is provided by Nodalab. Our designers are Baron Santiago and Vinsuka Chindavashak. Website by Gregory Hedon.
Photography by Christy Hemm Klok. Special thanks to the entire Breakthrough Builders crew at Qualtrics, including Ali Rohani, James Wadsworth, John Johnson, and Kylan Lundeen.